[TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

Wed Mar 9 11:28:00 EST 2022

To other members of the TYPES list,

I would like to bring to your attention that I have learned that this has been subject to an editorial style of moderation, so there may be people whose points of view have not been heard because the moderator decided (in his words) that their perspectives "did not add to the discussion". Therefore I would be happy to continue this discussion elsewhere, but I will not be contributing further to this thread.

On a broader note, I realize this is a very fraught topic and that people have good reasons for holding the views they do. I hope that as a community we can find a way to talk about it that is respectful and also cognizant of the difficulty of the issues that we are facing now.

Best wishes,
Jon Sterling

> On Mar 9, 2022, at 5:07 PM, Fritz Henglein <fritz at henglein.com> wrote:
> 
> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> 
> We may very well be in a situation analogous to the Fall of 1939 in
> Germany: The outbreak of an eventually humongous war, initiated then by an
> invasion of  Poland, now of Ukraine where Ukraine is quite overtly not the
> final goal, judging by both open announcements and leaked documents out of
> Moscow; a well-organized dictator with a penchant for effective mass
> propaganda, enjoying high popularity with a majority determined (or forced
> to) endure economic isolation and drinking Ersatzkaffee without significant
> protests; and clever politician speculating (not without reason) that the
> on-paper-superior Western powers are too indifferent, too afraid or too
> divided (or any combination of that) to mount an effective resistance.
> 
> And where researchers and academics are pressured to display allegiance --
> or to flee the country.  As courageous as the recent joint protest by
> Russian academics was (as are the ongoing street protests by the few, but
> stunningly courageous, on the streets of Russia), it *sadly* seems, at this
> point, that an aloof academic (or sports or cultural) global community will
> provide more fuel for fostering the impression that the West is harmless
> and afraid than channeling balanced reporting and openness back and forth
> across the new bloody iron curtain.
> 
> My *gut* reaction was that ETAPS overstepped their mandate by being overtly
> political.  On second thought it's hard to see how whatever they -- and
> others like us organizing events -- decided could *not* be political.
> Maybe this is the time we should lobby our funding agencies to provide
> added funding for scientists from Russia and Belarus who may be looking for
> interesting positions abroad, such as those who may make it to ETAPS
> somehow (in my mind the sole reason for keeping a sneaky door open to
> (Bela)Russian participants).
> 
> At home we and our neighbors are preparing for the arrival of Ukrainian
> refugees. And of Russian and Belarussian refugees.
> 
> Fritz
> 
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 3:05 PM Sergiy Bogomolov <bogom.s at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
>> ]
>> 
>>> Banning scientists from ETAPS won't do anything to bring the end of war
>> a step closer.
>>> Banning Netflix, McDonalds, Visa, Mastercard, etc., etc., from Russia,
>> and ceasing to purchase fossil fuels from Russia might. Banning scientific
>> conferences won't have any impact.
>> 
>> Alastair: Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I don't really agree
>> with this statement.
>> 
>> At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
>> inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce their
>> support of the Putin regime.
>> 
>> In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
>> more impact sanctions are going to have.
>> 
>> Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
>> ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in international
>> conferences.
>> 
>> In other words, I see the step of ETAPS organisers -- similar to
>> banning Netflix, etc. -- as yet another tool to target a particular
>> demographic, which the West should deploy to stop the war.
>> 
>> I hope this makes sense.
>> 
>> Thanks, Sergiy
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> Ally
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Types-list <types-list-bounces at LISTS.SEAS.UPENN.EDU> on behalf of
>> Sergiy Bogomolov <bogom.s at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: 09 March 2022 10:43
>>> To: types <types-list at lists.seas.upenn.edu>
>>> Subject: Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending
>>> 
>>> [ The Types Forum,
>> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
>>> 
>>> Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
>>> ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
>>> conference.
>>> 
>>> The rationale is the as follows:
>>> 
>>> *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
>>> response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
>>> in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries introduced
>>> very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian officials
>>> from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At the
>>> same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the folks
>>> who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the broad
>>> Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
>>> these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
>>> reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can go
>>> ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
>>> implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the course of
>>> actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting the
>>> Russian population have failed.
>>> 
>>> * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
>>> Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
>>> the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
>>> whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
>>> their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
>>> counterproductive to their prosperity. This is an unfortunate reality
>>> that the West has to resolve to this kind of approach, but I believe
>>> there are only a limited number of ways to stop the war without ending
>>> up in a direct military confrontation between the West and Russia.
>>> 
>>> * To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
>>> organisers I suggest the following thought experiment. Imagine you go
>>> to bed without knowing you are going to be alive in the morning (as
>>> Russian army pursues indiscriminate bombing of residential areas;
>>> including the city of Kharkiv where I grew up). Imagine getting up in
>>> the morning and calling your relatives to check out whether they are
>>> still alive. If you were in such a situation, would you still be
>>> willing to allow the Russian affiliated scientists to participate in
>>> the conference? This is the reality myself and all the Ukrainians are
>>> living through. Now, consider whether prohibiting the participation of
>>> Russian affiliated scientists -- who did not participate at ETAPS en
>>> masse anyway -- which could bring the end of war a step closer
>>> outweighs the arguments to let the Russian affiliated scientists
>>> participate in the conference.
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Sergiy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 at 09:50, Alejandro Díaz-Caro
>>> <alejandro at diaz-caro.info> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> [ The Types Forum,
>> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
>>>> 
>>>> Dear Marino, dear all,
>>>> 
>>>> El mié, 9 mar. 2022 05:05, Marino Miculan <marino.miculan at uniud.it>
>>>> escribió:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Of course, I am sure that there are many colleagues there against the
>>>>> invasion. But then, we have to distinguish between the
>> responsibility of
>>>>> the single, and that of the institution.  For instance, I would have
>> no
>>>>> problems if a researcher from a Russian university  registers and
>> presents
>>>>> their results at ETAPS (or any other conference) without any
>> affiliation.
>>>>> That would be already a strong signal, as in "I'm here on my own,
>> and I
>>>>> dissociate from my rector's opinions".
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> That would be even worst than the decision of banning a country by
>> their
>>>> war politics. What you are proposing there is to ask the researchers
>> about
>>>> their political personal opinion in order to be admitted to a
>> conference. I
>>>> find this completely wrong.
>>>> 
>>>> Shall we also inquire Cubans if they support Fidel Castro or Americans
>> if
>>>> they support the blockade? Shall we ask Israel or Palestinians what
>> side of
>>>> the conflict they support, and let them register according to the
>> personal
>>>> stand of the organisers at the venue?
>>>> 
>>>> I think that mixing politics with the scientific community at this
>> global
>>>> level is very dangerous and ultimately wrong.
>>>> 
>>>> I hope this line of actions do not prosper, or we will damage the
>>>> scientific community for many years.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> Alejandro
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> 