[TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Nicolai Kraus]

Dear Sergiy,

like everyone who has posted on this list, I am absolutely horrified by
what is happening in Ukraine, and it is hard for me to even begin to
imagine what you are going through. I believe we agree that Putin's regime
is to blame, not the Russian population. That's why I feel this statement
is not fair:

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 12:12 PM Sergiy Bogomolov <bogom.s at gmail.com> wrote:

> * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
> Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
> the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
> their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
> counterproductive to their prosperity.


I don't think researchers in Russia need to be excluded from international
events in order to "finally give some thoughts about the decision of their
government". I'm worried that such a statement contributes to shifting the
blame from the regime to the general population. As far as I'm aware, the
huge majority of researchers in Russia oppose Putin's government. Opponents
of Putin in- and outside of Russia should work together rather than fight
each other. While the Russian government claims to be legitimized through
elections, these are not elections according to Western standards. I assume
that the support Putin has in the Russian population mostly stems from
propaganda and censorship, and researchers attending international
conferences are unlikely to be misled. On the contrary, isolating them from
the international community might make them more susceptible to censorship.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 12:12 PM Sergiy Bogomolov <bogom.s at gmail.com> wrote:

> * To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
> organisers I suggest the following thought experiment. Imagine you go
> to bed without knowing you are going to be alive in the morning (as
> Russian army pursues indiscriminate bombing of residential areas;
> including the city of Kharkiv where I grew up). Imagine getting up in
> the morning and calling your relatives to check out whether they are
> still alive. If you were in such a situation, would you still be
> willing to allow the Russian affiliated scientists to participate in
> the conference? This is the reality myself and all the Ukrainians are
> living through. Now, consider whether prohibiting the participation of
> Russian affiliated scientists -- who did not participate at ETAPS en
> masse anyway -- which could bring the end of war a step closer
> outweighs the arguments to let the Russian affiliated scientists
> participate in the conference.
>

This thought is terrifying and I'm deeply sorry that you are in this
situation. But if excluding Russian scientists could get us closer to the
end of the war, I think many Russian scientists would exclude themselves in
a flash. Yes, I would still want to allow Russian-affiliated scientists to
attend conferences, please let's not turn this into a "Russians against
Ukrainians" situation when it's really "Putin against everyone who is sane".

Best wishes,
Nicolai
(Not sure whether it's relevant, but I'm neither Russian nor Ukrainian.)


On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 12:12 PM Sergiy Bogomolov <bogom.s at gmail.com> wrote:

> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
> ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
> conference.
>
> The rationale is the as follows:
>
> *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
> response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
> in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries introduced
> very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian officials
> from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At the
> same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the folks
> who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the broad
> Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
> these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
> reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can go
> ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
> implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the course of
> actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting the
> Russian population have failed.
>
> * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
> Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
> the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
> their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
> counterproductive to their prosperity. This is an unfortunate reality
> that the West has to resolve to this kind of approach, but I believe
> there are only a limited number of ways to stop the war without ending
> up in a direct military confrontation between the West and Russia.
>
> * To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
> organisers I suggest the following thought experiment. Imagine you go
> to bed without knowing you are going to be alive in the morning (as
> Russian army pursues indiscriminate bombing of residential areas;
> including the city of Kharkiv where I grew up). Imagine getting up in
> the morning and calling your relatives to check out whether they are
> still alive. If you were in such a situation, would you still be
> willing to allow the Russian affiliated scientists to participate in
> the conference? This is the reality myself and all the Ukrainians are
> living through. Now, consider whether prohibiting the participation of
> Russian affiliated scientists -- who did not participate at ETAPS en
> masse anyway -- which could bring the end of war a step closer
> outweighs the arguments to let the Russian affiliated scientists
> participate in the conference.
>
> Thanks, Sergiy
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 at 09:50, Alejandro Díaz-Caro
> <alejandro at diaz-caro.info> wrote:
> >
> > [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> >
> > Dear Marino, dear all,
> >
> > El mié, 9 mar. 2022 05:05, Marino Miculan <marino.miculan at uniud.it>
> > escribió:
> >
> > >
> > > Of course, I am sure that there are many colleagues there against the
> > > invasion. But then, we have to distinguish between the responsibility
> of
> > > the single, and that of the institution.  For instance, I would have no
> > > problems if a researcher from a Russian university  registers and
> presents
> > > their results at ETAPS (or any other conference) without any
> affiliation.
> > > That would be already a strong signal, as in "I'm here on my own, and I
> > > dissociate from my rector's opinions".
> > >
> >
> > That would be even worst than the decision of banning a country by their
> > war politics. What you are proposing there is to ask the researchers
> about
> > their political personal opinion in order to be admitted to a
> conference. I
> > find this completely wrong.
> >
> > Shall we also inquire Cubans if they support Fidel Castro or Americans if
> > they support the blockade? Shall we ask Israel or Palestinians what side
> of
> > the conflict they support, and let them register according to the
> personal
> > stand of the organisers at the venue?
> >
> > I think that mixing politics with the scientific community at this global
> > level is very dangerous and ultimately wrong.
> >
> > I hope this line of actions do not prosper, or we will damage the
> > scientific community for many years.
> >
> > Best,
> > Alejandro
> >
> > >
>