[TYPES] Could we temporarily stop having conferences in the US?

Tue Sep 23 14:27:04 EDT 2025

Hi, Xavier.

I appreciate fully how terrible the situation is, and in particular I am
aware of the examples you gave, and so I respect individuals' reasons for
not travelling to the US.  However, the examples you gave were -- if I am
not mistaken -- related to people who were *working* in the US.  It would
be helpful to know of concrete examples of academics who were harassed,
mistreated, or detained by government officials when travelling to
conferences in the US.  My impression is that there are extremely few such
cases -- but I don't know.

As I said, I think we as a community have to consider the needs of all PL
researchers, including many non-US-citizen researchers working in the US
for whom it would be a significant hardship if all conferences took place
outside the US.

In any case, I think that if people really care about this issue, the Types
forum is not the ideal mechanism to effect change.  It would be more useful
to bring the issue to the attention of the SIGPLAN EC and/or individual
conference SCs and start a discussion there.  I'm happy to raise the issue
for discussion on the POPL SC since I'm a member of that, and if you (or
someone else) wants to make a formal proposal for me to forward to the SC,
I'm happy to do that.  But ultimately, I think that before any drastic
changes are made, we will need input from the whole community, not just
those who are vocal about it in one email thread.

Thanks,
Derek

On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 7:09 PM Xavier Leroy <
xavier.leroy at college-de-france.fr> wrote:

> Dear Derek,
>
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 6:13 PM Derek Dreyer <dreyer at mpi-sws.org> wrote:
>
>> [ The Types Forum,
>> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list  ]
>>
>> Thanks for the lively discussion about this issue.  However, I'm afraid I
>> must disagree with the opinions posted so far that advocated for
>> (temporarily) abandoning conferences in the US.
>>
>> Of course, many people in our community are understandably upset because
>> of
>> the actions of the Trump administration and its effect on immigration and
>> research.  I, too, am very upset about it (to put it mildly).
>>
>> But it seems to me there are multiple different issues being conflated in
>> Gabriel's original post, and the proposed cure is worse than the disease.
>> In particular, he wrote: "It is pretty clear that the US are not a safe
>> place for universities right now, and also unpalatable-to-unsafe for
>> people
>> (especially foreigners) working in universities."
>>
>> Concerning the point that the US is not a safe place for universities: I
>> am
>> not exactly sure what he meant, but I assume he meant that universities
>> are
>> suffering under the major funding cuts and generally threatening behavior
>> of the Trump administration.  This is certainly true.  However, it is not
>> clear to me how holding an academic conference outside the US for a couple
>> years will sway Trump to do something different.  Furthermore, when
>> considering other conference locations, I do not recall it ever having
>> been
>> a priority to select locations based on whether the local government was
>> particularly supportive of science.  Even in its diminished state, the US
>> government will still be a major contributor to global research funding.
>>
>> Concerning the point that the US is "unpalatable-to-unsafe for people
>> (especially foreigners) working in universities", I again am not
>> completely
>> sure what this is referring to.
>
>
> Let me try to make it clear to you.  At this point in time, I do not feel
> safe traveling to the US.  This despite the fact that I lived 2 years there
> (as an intern then as a postdoc), held various US visas, traveled there a
> great many times, never had any problem with immigration, and never felt
> threatened or unwelcome in the US before.  Now, I see foreign students
> being arbitrarily deported
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activist_deportations_in_the_second_Trump_presidency__;!!IBzWLUs!TziBy7fmswOPE20aySO0ju0tuhUIMVIopOtI7qm57ShmcmucMdVlgToD5-I751tmFQPfowg2MhdVoLGC8h7KbE_9RvSt$ > or
> illegally stripped off their legal status
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/international-students-stripped-of-legal-status-in-the-u-s-are-piling-up-wins-in-court__;!!IBzWLUs!TziBy7fmswOPE20aySO0ju0tuhUIMVIopOtI7qm57ShmcmucMdVlgToD5-I751tmFQPfowg2MhdVoLGC8h7KbCJjEqO_$ >,
> South Korean legal workers being arrested, held one week in detention
> camp and deported <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9j585g23go__;!!IBzWLUs!TziBy7fmswOPE20aySO0ju0tuhUIMVIopOtI7qm57ShmcmucMdVlgToD5-I751tmFQPfowg2MhdVoLGC8h7KbIkJQcmD$ >, etc.
>
> Can you understand that members of our research community who are less
> privileged than I am (i.e. don't have European Union citizenship, fair
> skin, unthreatening middle-aged man looks, and a solid permanent academic
> position in Europe) are even more scared than I am?
>
> Of course we will not go to the US to attend a conference.  Please accept
> this fact and work with us to find alternatives to keep our conferences
> alive.
>
> - Xavier Leroy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> If this is referring to non-US citizens
>> working in universities in the US, who might have their visas revoked on
>> whatever proclamation Trump thinks up tomorrow, yes, this is really bad.
>> But as has already been noted by Julia and others, it is *much* easier for
>> those people to attend conferences in the US than elsewhere.  If on the
>> other hand this is referring to people travelling to the US for the
>> conference, I heard a few horror stories earlier this year, but I have not
>> seen evidence that there is widespread harassment of academics entering
>> the
>> US for a conference.  So I think the chance of encountering a problem is
>> very low.  But I agree that this is a valid cause for concern, and I can
>> understand if people are hesitant to travel to the US because of it.
>>
>> Others on the thread have suggested improving our virtual conference
>> participation options so that US researchers can participate even if the
>> event is held elsewhere.  I am all for improving virtual conference
>> participation, but we had several years of experimentation with that
>> during
>> the pandemic, and in the end the verdict seemed to be that it didn't
>> really
>> work.  At least it is not a replacement for in-person participation.  But
>> I
>> think if people are motivated enough, and enough people do not want to
>> travel to the US for conferences, then it would be a great idea to
>> experiment with satellite meetings, also for climate reasons.
>>
>> In summary, given that a very significant portion of our community
>> includes
>> people working at US universities, I think that we should not abandon
>> conferences in the US entirely.  We could, however, consider reducing the
>> frequency with which conferences are located in the US (e.g. to no more
>> than 1/2 or some smaller fraction of the time), as well as exploring
>> complementary options like satellite meetings.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Derek
>>
>> P.S. In response to Artem's question, I would not consider the discussion
>> on this list to necessarily be representative of the "stance" of the PL
>> community on this issue.  It may be worth gauging the stance of the
>> research community, but that may be best done with post-conference surveys
>> at some upcoming SIGPLAN conferences.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 5:17 PM Artem Shinkarov <tema at pm.me> wrote:
>>
>> > [ The Types Forum,
>> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list 
>> > ]
>> >
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > It appears that the argument regarding being "trapped in" is diverting
>> the
>> > discussion from the intent of the original post: the toxic attitude of
>> the
>> > US towards research and researchers, which requires action from the
>> > research community. Ban on conferences in the US could serve as a
>> > meaningful statement or gesture that we ought to consider.
>> >
>> > The issue of being "trapped in" is indeed one of the drawbacks
>> highlighted
>> > in the original post. However, this situation is not unique to the US;
>> > similar challenges arise in other countries as well. For instance,
>> > individuals on visas in the UK may find themselves unable to travel to
>> > Europe, the US, and beyond. As noted in previous discussions, we can
>> > address this issue by ensuring adequate online participation and
>> exploring
>> > the possibility of satellite events. Nevertheless, the crucial question
>> > remains: is the research community prepared to express its stance on
>> this
>> > matter, and what is the most effective way to do so?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Artem
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tuesday, September 23rd, 2025 at 1:36 PM, Niki Vazou <
>> > nikivazou at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > [ The Types Forum,
>> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list    ]
>> > >
>> > > Hey,
>> > >
>> > > I also agree that moving is getting more complicated (both for the
>> > > geopolitical events and the environment...)
>> > > So, maybe a good alternative would be, in parallel to the main event,
>> to
>> > > have satellite events. For example, when a conference happens in USA,
>> to
>> > > have participants gather in another country to attend/participate.
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > > Niki
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 5:35 PM Julia Belyakova julbinb at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > [ The Types Forum,
>> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list 
>> > > > ]
>> > > >
>> > > > I don't disagree that the US is not a welcome destination for many
>> > people
>> > > > right now.
>> > > >
>> > > > I did want to point out the existence of the trapped-in-the-US
>> > > > international community because in my experience, a lot of people,
>> > > > understandably, are not aware of this phenomenon.
>> > > >
>> > > > In general, there are many reasons why an individual cannot travel
>> to a
>> > > > particular location, be it the US or another country.
>> > > >
>> > > > To be constructive, I would like to amplify an alternative
>> suggestion
>> > > > discussed in Zulip, which is to have an explicit policy for
>> presenting
>> > the
>> > > > paper at a different conference that is held in a more suitable
>> > location
>> > > > for the author. Similar to what SIGPLAN-track has been doing at
>> SPLASH.
>> > > >
>> > > > Of course, it would require more coordination across the conferences
>> > and an
>> > > > additional logistics burden on organizers.
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Kind regards, Julia
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://julbinb.github.io/__;!!IBzWLUs!WAX7xyBsdZT3oMFK0lm5dFmak5nvWszH_Tt-tl_8MyRugaEYzh3Sm-WminTMTReV3LLNlPUOJIjBk-3FDMWtDsPMfds$
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 12:27 AM Sanjiva Prasad
>> sanjiva at cse.iitd.ac.in
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > So ia=s my son (for INS reasons) -- could not attend ECOOP or CAV
>> > this
>> > > > > year where he had best papers.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > But computer science is not a US monopoly (not even in ACM now,
>> > though
>> > > > > registered in the US).
>> > > > > It costs Indians and Chinese and some others USD250 over the visa
>> > costs
>> > > > > just to enter the US.
>> > > > > Am not saying that getting into Europe or India is easier, but US
>> is
>> > not
>> > > > > a welcome destination for many right now.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 22/09/25 04:18, Julia Belyakova wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > [ The Types Forum,
>> > > > > > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list    ]
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I understand this position but just want to remind that there
>> are
>> > many
>> > > > > > international students and professionals in the community who
>> are
>> > stuck
>> > > > > > inside the US and cannot cross the border, even to go Canada.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I, for one, have been stuck in the US since 2020.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Sanjiva Prasad
>> > > > > Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering
>> > > > > Indian Institute of Technology Delhi (IIT Delhi)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Niki Vazou
>> >
>>
>