[TYPES] Could we temporarily stop having conferences in the US?

[Peter Sewell]

On Tue, 23 Sept 2025 at 17:45, Derek Dreyer <dreyer at mpi-sws.org> wrote:

> AFAIK, all the major SIGPLAN conferences already provide a remote option
> for virtual participation.  It is possible that there have been exceptions,
> but that is the post-Covid/PACMPL norm.
>

I did hear of a recent exception.  Also (outside SIGPLAN, of course), I see
SOSP has a policy that requires special permission from the PC chairs for
remote presentation.




> I'm not sure what you're proposing re: geographically distributing paper
> presentations -- what is "vire"? -- but it sounds complicated.
>

To let authors of accepted papers defer presentation to a future
more-accessible-to-them SIGPLAN conference, much as we do for TOPLAS.  If
that turned out fairly uncommon, it'd be relatively easy to accommodate.
But even if not, maybe we should.

("vire": to transfer funds between budgets, here used loosely. Bizarrely,
that sense is not in the OED, even though it's common)

Peter



>
> Derek
>
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 6:19 PM Peter Sewell <Peter.Sewell at cl.cam.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Straightforwardly actionable, and I think a no-brainer: we can ensure
>> that remote participation is (imperfect though it is) uniformly available.
>>
>> Not completely straightforward logistically, but I imagine doable: we
>> could allow authors to freely vire paper presentations among the SIGPLAN
>> conferences, and ensure that those are geographically distributed.  There'd
>> be some hit to the the character and critical-mass-of-related-people, but
>> that might well be worthwhile.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 23 Sept 2025 at 17:10, Derek Dreyer <dreyer at mpi-sws.org> wrote:
>>
>>> [ The Types Forum,
>>> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list  ]
>>>
>>> Thanks for the lively discussion about this issue.  However, I'm afraid I
>>> must disagree with the opinions posted so far that advocated for
>>> (temporarily) abandoning conferences in the US.
>>>
>>> Of course, many people in our community are understandably upset because
>>> of
>>> the actions of the Trump administration and its effect on immigration and
>>> research.  I, too, am very upset about it (to put it mildly).
>>>
>>> But it seems to me there are multiple different issues being conflated in
>>> Gabriel's original post, and the proposed cure is worse than the disease.
>>> In particular, he wrote: "It is pretty clear that the US are not a safe
>>> place for universities right now, and also unpalatable-to-unsafe for
>>> people
>>> (especially foreigners) working in universities."
>>>
>>> Concerning the point that the US is not a safe place for universities: I
>>> am
>>> not exactly sure what he meant, but I assume he meant that universities
>>> are
>>> suffering under the major funding cuts and generally threatening behavior
>>> of the Trump administration.  This is certainly true.  However, it is not
>>> clear to me how holding an academic conference outside the US for a
>>> couple
>>> years will sway Trump to do something different.  Furthermore, when
>>> considering other conference locations, I do not recall it ever having
>>> been
>>> a priority to select locations based on whether the local government was
>>> particularly supportive of science.  Even in its diminished state, the US
>>> government will still be a major contributor to global research funding.
>>>
>>> Concerning the point that the US is "unpalatable-to-unsafe for people
>>> (especially foreigners) working in universities", I again am not
>>> completely
>>> sure what this is referring to.  If this is referring to non-US citizens
>>> working in universities in the US, who might have their visas revoked on
>>> whatever proclamation Trump thinks up tomorrow, yes, this is really bad.
>>> But as has already been noted by Julia and others, it is *much* easier
>>> for
>>> those people to attend conferences in the US than elsewhere.  If on the
>>> other hand this is referring to people travelling to the US for the
>>> conference, I heard a few horror stories earlier this year, but I have
>>> not
>>> seen evidence that there is widespread harassment of academics entering
>>> the
>>> US for a conference.  So I think the chance of encountering a problem is
>>> very low.  But I agree that this is a valid cause for concern, and I can
>>> understand if people are hesitant to travel to the US because of it.
>>>
>>> Others on the thread have suggested improving our virtual conference
>>> participation options so that US researchers can participate even if the
>>> event is held elsewhere.  I am all for improving virtual conference
>>> participation, but we had several years of experimentation with that
>>> during
>>> the pandemic, and in the end the verdict seemed to be that it didn't
>>> really
>>> work.  At least it is not a replacement for in-person participation.
>>> But I
>>> think if people are motivated enough, and enough people do not want to
>>> travel to the US for conferences, then it would be a great idea to
>>> experiment with satellite meetings, also for climate reasons.
>>>
>>> In summary, given that a very significant portion of our community
>>> includes
>>> people working at US universities, I think that we should not abandon
>>> conferences in the US entirely.  We could, however, consider reducing the
>>> frequency with which conferences are located in the US (e.g. to no more
>>> than 1/2 or some smaller fraction of the time), as well as exploring
>>> complementary options like satellite meetings.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Derek
>>>
>>> P.S. In response to Artem's question, I would not consider the discussion
>>> on this list to necessarily be representative of the "stance" of the PL
>>> community on this issue.  It may be worth gauging the stance of the
>>> research community, but that may be best done with post-conference
>>> surveys
>>> at some upcoming SIGPLAN conferences.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 5:17 PM Artem Shinkarov <tema at pm.me> wrote:
>>>
>>> > [ The Types Forum,
>>> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list 
>>> > ]
>>> >
>>> > Hi
>>> >
>>> > It appears that the argument regarding being "trapped in" is diverting
>>> the
>>> > discussion from the intent of the original post: the toxic attitude of
>>> the
>>> > US towards research and researchers, which requires action from the
>>> > research community. Ban on conferences in the US could serve as a
>>> > meaningful statement or gesture that we ought to consider.
>>> >
>>> > The issue of being "trapped in" is indeed one of the drawbacks
>>> highlighted
>>> > in the original post. However, this situation is not unique to the US;
>>> > similar challenges arise in other countries as well. For instance,
>>> > individuals on visas in the UK may find themselves unable to travel to
>>> > Europe, the US, and beyond. As noted in previous discussions, we can
>>> > address this issue by ensuring adequate online participation and
>>> exploring
>>> > the possibility of satellite events. Nevertheless, the crucial question
>>> > remains: is the research community prepared to express its stance on
>>> this
>>> > matter, and what is the most effective way to do so?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Artem
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tuesday, September 23rd, 2025 at 1:36 PM, Niki Vazou <
>>> > nikivazou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > [ The Types Forum,
>>> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list    ]
>>> > >
>>> > > Hey,
>>> > >
>>> > > I also agree that moving is getting more complicated (both for the
>>> > > geopolitical events and the environment...)
>>> > > So, maybe a good alternative would be, in parallel to the main
>>> event, to
>>> > > have satellite events. For example, when a conference happens in
>>> USA, to
>>> > > have participants gather in another country to attend/participate.
>>> > >
>>> > > Best,
>>> > > Niki
>>> > >
>>> > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 5:35 PM Julia Belyakova julbinb at gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > [ The Types Forum,
>>> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list 
>>> > > > ]
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I don't disagree that the US is not a welcome destination for many
>>> > people
>>> > > > right now.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I did want to point out the existence of the trapped-in-the-US
>>> > > > international community because in my experience, a lot of people,
>>> > > > understandably, are not aware of this phenomenon.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > In general, there are many reasons why an individual cannot travel
>>> to a
>>> > > > particular location, be it the US or another country.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > To be constructive, I would like to amplify an alternative
>>> suggestion
>>> > > > discussed in Zulip, which is to have an explicit policy for
>>> presenting
>>> > the
>>> > > > paper at a different conference that is held in a more suitable
>>> > location
>>> > > > for the author. Similar to what SIGPLAN-track has been doing at
>>> SPLASH.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Of course, it would require more coordination across the
>>> conferences
>>> > and an
>>> > > > additional logistics burden on organizers.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > --
>>> > > > Kind regards, Julia
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://julbinb.github.io/__;!!IBzWLUs!WAX7xyBsdZT3oMFK0lm5dFmak5nvWszH_Tt-tl_8MyRugaEYzh3Sm-WminTMTReV3LLNlPUOJIjBk-3FDMWtDsPMfds$
>>> > > >
>>> > > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 12:27 AM Sanjiva Prasad
>>> sanjiva at cse.iitd.ac.in
>>> > > > wrote:
>>> > > >
>>> > > > > So ia=s my son (for INS reasons) -- could not attend ECOOP or CAV
>>> > this
>>> > > > > year where he had best papers.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > But computer science is not a US monopoly (not even in ACM now,
>>> > though
>>> > > > > registered in the US).
>>> > > > > It costs Indians and Chinese and some others USD250 over the visa
>>> > costs
>>> > > > > just to enter the US.
>>> > > > > Am not saying that getting into Europe or India is easier, but
>>> US is
>>> > not
>>> > > > > a welcome destination for many right now.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > On 22/09/25 04:18, Julia Belyakova wrote:
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > > [ The Types Forum,
>>> > > > > > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list    ]
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > I understand this position but just want to remind that there
>>> are
>>> > many
>>> > > > > > international students and professionals in the community who
>>> are
>>> > stuck
>>> > > > > > inside the US and cannot cross the border, even to go Canada.
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > I, for one, have been stuck in the US since 2020.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > --
>>> > > > > Sanjiva Prasad
>>> > > > > Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering
>>> > > > > Indian Institute of Technology Delhi (IIT Delhi)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Niki Vazou
>>> >
>>>
>>