[TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

Wed Mar 9 10:38:14 EST 2022

Thank you all for the comments and thoughtful discussion.

Being a Russian citizen, I don't feel entitled to argue on the ETAPS
decision, and emotionally, I understand the arguments in favor of that
decision.
I also acknowledge the argument about total isolation of the population
potentially sending the right message to the population:

> At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
> inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce their
> support of the Putin regime.
>
> In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
> more impact sanctions are going to have.
>
> Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
> ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in international
> conferences.

However, not all the means help the cause.

I would like to emphasize that there are a lot of people in Russia who do
not and have not supported Putin and the ongoing terrible war in Ukraine.
I think it is not unreasonable to assume that the Russian scientific
community, especially those who used to attend international conferences
and mingle with the international community, are the ones who are most
likely to already be in opposition to Putin.
Therefore, I do not see how targeting the population that does not support
Putin can help with the goal of reducing Putin's support.
Isolation can also make it harder for people to find sources of information
and see the real picture, playing into Putin's propaganda about the entire
world hating Russia. Several days ago, the few remaining independent media
have been blocked or forced to stop writing about the war; Twitter and
Facebook have been blocked, too, and other platforms are probably going to
be blocked soon as well.

Note that Russia is not a democratic country. Normal processes such as
voting against the regime in an election have not been properly operating
there for years. Official numbers of overwhelming Putin's support should be
taken with a sack of salt.

Since last week, people spreading "misinformation" and "discrediting" the
Russian army can face up to 15 years in prison. There haven't been 15-years
convictions yet, but the new law is already working, the first sentences
have been issued, a number of anti-war protesters have been beaten and
tortured by the police, the first students have been expelled from
universities for anti-war protests and posts.
Opposing the regime had not been easy even before the new law, and if you
are interested, I think this thread
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1499464037708537861.html__;!!IBzWLUs!FxAKdLfjzQnbTkxz-W3-5ggfdA5LYC9B4RvpB_4974izv-urcMH-M6_A5ZAh33U7pVyPl9bIm5U$ > captures the
situation accurately.

None of this, of course, compares or lessens the suffering of Ukrainian
people in any way.
I am devastated and ashamed by Putin's government invasion.
The war is unforgivable. Putin has to be stopped.

--
Kind regards, Julia

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 9:06 AM Sergiy Bogomolov <bogom.s at gmail.com> wrote:

> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> > Banning scientists from ETAPS won't do anything to bring the end of war
> a step closer.
> > Banning Netflix, McDonalds, Visa, Mastercard, etc., etc., from Russia,
> and ceasing to purchase fossil fuels from Russia might. Banning scientific
> conferences won't have any impact.
>
> Alastair: Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I don't really agree
> with this statement.
>
> At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
> inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce their
> support of the Putin regime.
>
> In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
> more impact sanctions are going to have.
>
> Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
> ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in international
> conferences.
>
> In other words, I see the step of ETAPS organisers -- similar to
> banning Netflix, etc. -- as yet another tool to target a particular
> demographic, which the West should deploy to stop the war.
>
> I hope this makes sense.
>
> Thanks, Sergiy
>
>
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Ally
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Types-list <types-list-bounces at LISTS.SEAS.UPENN.EDU> on behalf of
> Sergiy Bogomolov <bogom.s at gmail.com>
> > Sent: 09 March 2022 10:43
> > To: types <types-list at lists.seas.upenn.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending
> >
> > [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> >
> > Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
> > ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
> > conference.
> >
> > The rationale is the as follows:
> >
> > *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
> > response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
> > in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries introduced
> > very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian officials
> > from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At the
> > same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the folks
> > who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the broad
> > Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
> > these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
> > reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can go
> > ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
> > implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the course of
> > actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting the
> > Russian population have failed.
> >
> > * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
> > Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
> > the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> > whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
> > their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
> > counterproductive to their prosperity. This is an unfortunate reality
> > that the West has to resolve to this kind of approach, but I believe
> > there are only a limited number of ways to stop the war without ending
> > up in a direct military confrontation between the West and Russia.
> >
> > * To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
> > organisers I suggest the following thought experiment. Imagine you go
> > to bed without knowing you are going to be alive in the morning (as
> > Russian army pursues indiscriminate bombing of residential areas;
> > including the city of Kharkiv where I grew up). Imagine getting up in
> > the morning and calling your relatives to check out whether they are
> > still alive. If you were in such a situation, would you still be
> > willing to allow the Russian affiliated scientists to participate in
> > the conference? This is the reality myself and all the Ukrainians are
> > living through. Now, consider whether prohibiting the participation of
> > Russian affiliated scientists -- who did not participate at ETAPS en
> > masse anyway -- which could bring the end of war a step closer
> > outweighs the arguments to let the Russian affiliated scientists
> > participate in the conference.
> >
> > Thanks, Sergiy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 at 09:50, Alejandro Díaz-Caro
> > <alejandro at diaz-caro.info> wrote:
> > >
> > > [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> > >
> > > Dear Marino, dear all,
> > >
> > > El mié, 9 mar. 2022 05:05, Marino Miculan <marino.miculan at uniud.it>
> > > escribió:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Of course, I am sure that there are many colleagues there against the
> > > > invasion. But then, we have to distinguish between the
> responsibility of
> > > > the single, and that of the institution.  For instance, I would have
> no
> > > > problems if a researcher from a Russian university  registers and
> presents
> > > > their results at ETAPS (or any other conference) without any
> affiliation.
> > > > That would be already a strong signal, as in "I'm here on my own,
> and I
> > > > dissociate from my rector's opinions".
> > > >
> > >
> > > That would be even worst than the decision of banning a country by
> their
> > > war politics. What you are proposing there is to ask the researchers
> about
> > > their political personal opinion in order to be admitted to a
> conference. I
> > > find this completely wrong.
> > >
> > > Shall we also inquire Cubans if they support Fidel Castro or Americans
> if
> > > they support the blockade? Shall we ask Israel or Palestinians what
> side of
> > > the conflict they support, and let them register according to the
> personal
> > > stand of the organisers at the venue?
> > >
> > > I think that mixing politics with the scientific community at this
> global
> > > level is very dangerous and ultimately wrong.
> > >
> > > I hope this line of actions do not prosper, or we will damage the
> > > scientific community for many years.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Alejandro
> > >
> > > >
>