[TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

Wed Mar 9 13:43:43 EST 2022

I think this thread has mostly come to an end, but please let me add my
five cents.

I agree with Julia on most points. A blanket ban on Russian academics
participating in conferences would definitely not help to reduce their
minuscule (if an) support for the Putin regime and its aggression.
Rather it would probably create more of a sense of isolation and
disillusionment.

I also find the proposition that reducing the Russian people's support
of the Putin regime would bring a halt to its warmongering to be
questionable an a bit naive (without offense to anyone).

It is simply not true that the Putin regime is in place because there
is widespread support in Russia. Most Germans in 1939 definitely
weren't Nazis, and most Americans aren't racists either. (I hope I
don't get proven wrong on the latter.) But that's to say even in a
democracy, one needs to consider a multitude of societal factors before
drawing blanket conclusions, and Russia is a country ruled by a
dictatorial regime appropriately characterized as fascist.

I should also note that many Russian academics have been supporting the
anti-war, anti-aggression movement in the face of severe consequences.
So, should those academics wish to leave their country and pursue
positions in, say, Western Europe, wouldn't ETAPS be an important venue
to facilitate these moves?

Finally, I would like to add that we should not make this a Russia vs
the West issue, or demarcate things along these lines (this sort of
thinking offends me quite a bit). Instead this is a matter of
conscience. It's warmongering imperialists vs the people, and
oppression vs the oppressed.

And, at the end of the day, we the people shall prevail, and we will
prevail.

Best,
Xuanrui

On Wed, 2022-03-09 at 10:38 -0500, Julia Belyakova wrote:
> [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> 
> Thank you all for the comments and thoughtful discussion.
> 
> Being a Russian citizen, I don't feel entitled to argue on the ETAPS
> decision, and emotionally, I understand the arguments in favor of
> that
> decision.
> I also acknowledge the argument about total isolation of the
> population
> potentially sending the right message to the population:
> 
> > At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
> > inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce
> > their
> > support of the Putin regime.
> > 
> > In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
> > more impact sanctions are going to have.
> > 
> > Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
> > ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in
> > international
> > conferences.
> 
> However, not all the means help the cause.
> 
> I would like to emphasize that there are a lot of people in Russia
> who do
> not and have not supported Putin and the ongoing terrible war in
> Ukraine.
> I think it is not unreasonable to assume that the Russian scientific
> community, especially those who used to attend international
> conferences
> and mingle with the international community, are the ones who are
> most
> likely to already be in opposition to Putin.
> Therefore, I do not see how targeting the population that does not
> support
> Putin can help with the goal of reducing Putin's support.
> Isolation can also make it harder for people to find sources of
> information
> and see the real picture, playing into Putin's propaganda about the
> entire
> world hating Russia. Several days ago, the few remaining independent
> media
> have been blocked or forced to stop writing about the war; Twitter
> and
> Facebook have been blocked, too, and other platforms are probably
> going to
> be blocked soon as well.
> 
> Note that Russia is not a democratic country. Normal processes such
> as
> voting against the regime in an election have not been properly
> operating
> there for years. Official numbers of overwhelming Putin's support
> should be
> taken with a sack of salt.
> 
> Since last week, people spreading "misinformation" and "discrediting"
> the
> Russian army can face up to 15 years in prison. There haven't been
> 15-years
> convictions yet, but the new law is already working, the first
> sentences
> have been issued, a number of anti-war protesters have been beaten
> and
> tortured by the police, the first students have been expelled from
> universities for anti-war protests and posts.
> Opposing the regime had not been easy even before the new law, and if
> you
> are interested, I think this thread
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1499464
> 037708537861.html__;!!IBzWLUs!FxAKdLfjzQnbTkxz-W3-
> 5ggfdA5LYC9B4RvpB_4974izv-urcMH-M6_A5ZAh33U7pVyPl9bIm5U$ > captures
> the
> situation accurately.
> 
> None of this, of course, compares or lessens the suffering of
> Ukrainian
> people in any way.
> I am devastated and ashamed by Putin's government invasion.
> The war is unforgivable. Putin has to be stopped.
> 
> --
> Kind regards, Julia
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 9:06 AM Sergiy Bogomolov <bogom.s at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > [ The Types Forum,
> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> > ]
> > 
> > > Banning scientists from ETAPS won't do anything to bring the end
> > > of war
> > a step closer.
> > > Banning Netflix, McDonalds, Visa, Mastercard, etc., etc., from
> > > Russia,
> > and ceasing to purchase fossil fuels from Russia might. Banning
> > scientific
> > conferences won't have any impact.
> > 
> > Alastair: Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I don't really agree
> > with this statement.
> > 
> > At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
> > inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce
> > their
> > support of the Putin regime.
> > 
> > In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
> > more impact sanctions are going to have.
> > 
> > Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
> > ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in
> > international
> > conferences.
> > 
> > In other words, I see the step of ETAPS organisers -- similar to
> > banning Netflix, etc. -- as yet another tool to target a particular
> > demographic, which the West should deploy to stop the war.
> > 
> > I hope this makes sense.
> > 
> > Thanks, Sergiy
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Cheers
> > > 
> > > Ally
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Types-list <types-list-bounces at LISTS.SEAS.UPENN.EDU> on
> > > behalf of
> > Sergiy Bogomolov <bogom.s at gmail.com>
> > > Sent: 09 March 2022 10:43
> > > To: types <types-list at lists.seas.upenn.edu>
> > > Subject: Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from
> > > attending
> > > 
> > > [ The Types Forum,
> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> > > 
> > > Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision
> > > to
> > > ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
> > > conference.
> > > 
> > > The rationale is the as follows:
> > > 
> > > *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the
> > > weak
> > > response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of
> > > Ukraine
> > > in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries
> > > introduced
> > > very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian
> > > officials
> > > from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At
> > > the
> > > same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the
> > > folks
> > > who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the
> > > broad
> > > Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
> > > these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
> > > reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can
> > > go
> > > ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
> > > implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the
> > > course of
> > > actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting
> > > the
> > > Russian population have failed.
> > > 
> > > * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine,
> > > the
> > > Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have
> > > devised
> > > the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> > > whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the
> > > decisions of
> > > their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
> > > counterproductive to their prosperity. This is an unfortunate
> > > reality
> > > that the West has to resolve to this kind of approach, but I
> > > believe
> > > there are only a limited number of ways to stop the war without
> > > ending
> > > up in a direct military confrontation between the West and
> > > Russia.
> > > 
> > > * To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
> > > organisers I suggest the following thought experiment. Imagine
> > > you go
> > > to bed without knowing you are going to be alive in the morning
> > > (as
> > > Russian army pursues indiscriminate bombing of residential areas;
> > > including the city of Kharkiv where I grew up). Imagine getting
> > > up in
> > > the morning and calling your relatives to check out whether they
> > > are
> > > still alive. If you were in such a situation, would you still be
> > > willing to allow the Russian affiliated scientists to participate
> > > in
> > > the conference? This is the reality myself and all the Ukrainians
> > > are
> > > living through. Now, consider whether prohibiting the
> > > participation of
> > > Russian affiliated scientists -- who did not participate at ETAPS
> > > en
> > > masse anyway -- which could bring the end of war a step closer
> > > outweighs the arguments to let the Russian affiliated scientists
> > > participate in the conference.
> > > 
> > > Thanks, Sergiy
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 at 09:50, Alejandro Díaz-Caro
> > > <alejandro at diaz-caro.info> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > [ The Types Forum,
> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> > > > 
> > > > Dear Marino, dear all,
> > > > 
> > > > El mié, 9 mar. 2022 05:05, Marino Miculan
> > > > <marino.miculan at uniud.it>
> > > > escribió:
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Of course, I am sure that there are many colleagues there
> > > > > against the
> > > > > invasion. But then, we have to distinguish between the
> > responsibility of
> > > > > the single, and that of the institution.  For instance, I
> > > > > would have
> > no
> > > > > problems if a researcher from a Russian university  registers
> > > > > and
> > presents
> > > > > their results at ETAPS (or any other conference) without any
> > affiliation.
> > > > > That would be already a strong signal, as in "I'm here on my
> > > > > own,
> > and I
> > > > > dissociate from my rector's opinions".
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > That would be even worst than the decision of banning a country
> > > > by
> > their
> > > > war politics. What you are proposing there is to ask the
> > > > researchers
> > about
> > > > their political personal opinion in order to be admitted to a
> > conference. I
> > > > find this completely wrong.
> > > > 
> > > > Shall we also inquire Cubans if they support Fidel Castro or
> > > > Americans
> > if
> > > > they support the blockade? Shall we ask Israel or Palestinians
> > > > what
> > side of
> > > > the conflict they support, and let them register according to
> > > > the
> > personal
> > > > stand of the organisers at the venue?
> > > > 
> > > > I think that mixing politics with the scientific community at
> > > > this
> > global
> > > > level is very dangerous and ultimately wrong.
> > > > 
> > > > I hope this line of actions do not prosper, or we will damage
> > > > the
> > > > scientific community for many years.
> > > > 
> > > > Best,
> > > > Alejandro
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > 